The Non-Tech Founders' Podcast

Laura: Hello, and welcome to the Non-Tech Founders podcast, fortnightly conversations about running a business as a non-technical founder. I'm Laura. And I'm Nathan. Join us as we navigate the developer-dominated world of entrepreneurship, bootstrapping and beyond. In today's episode, we're going to be talking about shiny object syndrome and dealing with a lack of focus as an entrepreneur.

But first, I think we are going to just give a little bit of an update as to. We're up to. Yeah,

Nathan: I think, I think we're due in an update, aren't we? We

Laura: haven't done one yet. Yeah, we haven't done one at all, so nobody knows where we are, or what we're doing, so it makes

Nathan: sense what we're working on. Yeah. Do you what, So what, what are you up to?

Let's go with you. Let's go What are you up to Laura?

Laura: So I am actually just about to launch the client portal website redesign. Oh, cool. I say launch it. I'm not really launching it because it's, I've only actually designed. Like three or four pages, but it's a complete redesign. And it was meant to go live yesterday, but I don't know what happened with the developers I used there.

It's, it's not so it should be, um, any day now. It should be imminent. Um, but I'm not really going to announce it because. The other half of the website is still the old brand and you know, people all think it's broken or something, but I'm doing it in these small increments because I wanna get something out because the current website really, I'm super embarrassed about it.

Like it's so old and I threw it together quickly before client Portal was really. Thing.

Nathan: Um, is it the original website still?

Laura: It's almost the original. It's like version two, but the original was just this. HTML one page thing. That's awful. And then this is like the second version that I still threw together super quickly, right at the very beginning.

And it hasn't changed and I can't actually edit it at all. Oh, right. Okay. So there's nothing I can really do with the website and it's just, I can't believe it's taken me this long to, uh, redesign it. But what's it built on? Um, it's WordPress website. Um, Okay. But it's not like a proper theme. So it's just like I had

Nathan: one of those years ago.

It's impossible. Yeah, if you're non-technical,

Laura: it's impossible. Yeah. I can sort of hack together little bits, but it always looks awful. And considering I'm a designer, . It's just embarrassing. And a lot of people buy client portal cuz they like the way it looks. They want something that's, that's well designed.

And, um, I actually got an email yesterday, so I checked my, um, client portal inbox. It's still in the inbox now of someone saying, by the way, your, uh, homepage on your website doesn't do this tool Justice . Oh yeah. And it killed me because I was like, Oh, this was meant to be live yesterday. Uh oh. Yeah, that's,

Nathan: And how long is this?

How long has this redesign taken, you be honest?

Laura: Um, I started it at the beginning of the year, so in January. Wow. Um, it's now October. I thought it would be, and bear in mind, this isn't a big re this is a few pages. It's been ready for the most part. There's just, there's a lot of stuff you have to do when you do a redesign, like, I've got a lot of different industries that use client portal, so it was just freelancers and agencies and now it, we've got so many law firms, accountants, all this different stuff that I'm having to put together case studies for and content for, and it's area industries that I'm not.

That familiar with myself, So it's really hard to do these example portals. I'm trying to it. Mm. It's just, I put it off a

Nathan: little bit, to be honest. Okay. Okay. So it's not just redesigning the landing page, so to speak. It's not just the homepage. You've, you've, you've added sort of, uh, client types and, and pages based on that, right?

Yeah,

Laura: exactly. So eventually every industry's going to have its own landing. But on the homepage I've got like a carousel that sort of whis through them, and each industry needs a, a portal example attached to it. So it's just like little things like that that have just taken me a really long time and I've been redesigning the checkout.

Um, and then the back end of the, you know, people's account area because it was awful before. And some people say, Why are you bothering doing that? But. You know, I want it to, I want it to be really easy to use for people who have bought client portal and I'm really happy with it. Just, uh, I can be a little bit of a perfectionist at times and it's been dragging on a little bit too long now, so I'm really excited for the first half to go live.

And then I've just gotta start the second half, so maybe this time next year, .

Nathan: Oh, that's awesome. Well, well known on getting that done at last anyway. Yeah. Thank you. That's one thing. One less thing and there's something else to feel good about, right?

Laura: Yeah, exactly. It's good. I feel like my first update is like a pretty good update website redesign.

That's great. So, um, awesome. But yeah, how about you? What have you been up to?

Nathan: Yeah, I'm, I'm flat out at the moment on, well, I'm flat out primarily on feature flux, which is the, the SaaS that I'm. Currently getting built as a, I'm getting the MVP built now. Um, so the last couple of weeks I've definitely been busy finishing off sort of designs, getting the prototyping set up, and I still have to write out some documentation actually to, to send over to the, the developer.

So that's been kind of my main focus the last couple of weeks and it's been quite exciting as well. I've finished all their customer development interviews, uh, a couple of weeks ago. And then based on that, I was able to sort of make all these, uh, final decisions and, and what's gonna make into the MVP and what isn't.

So that's cool. That's exciting. So hopefully within a week I'm gonna have something to look at. Um, the developer wanted to start off with the Figma integration as that was possibly gonna bring up kabe and potential roadblocks, you know, So he wanted to start with the, the kind of tricky stuff. Uh, so apparently that was a breeze, which is fantastic to.

Um, I think it's one of the perks of, uh, one of the benefits of, of hiring a, a senior developer. I think that's something we can talk about again in the future is the whole, you know, you get what you pay for kind of thing. Junior devs, senior devs and wild junior devs, same as junior designers. You know why?

They can save you a lot of money. They can also end up taking them an awful lot more time. Um, so you kind of end. You know, but, uh, yeah, so that's something I'm feeling really good at. And then the other thing I've got going on is I'm still trying and I'm kind of dragging my feet on the whole book. Re the book Writing for what?

The ux, I actually emailed my list. beginning of the week or the end of last week, I think end of last week with, um, a chapter outline. Even though I've already written the book pretty much, I started reading how to, how to write useful books, uh, by the same guy that wrote, uh, wrote, uh, the Mom test. Um, And while I couldn't really get on board with the MON test, I know controversial, I actually, uh, I actually really enjoyed uh, right use of the books.

So I've taken a step back and I've stopped writing. So I've sent out this, this draft list of, of chapters just to see if it resonates with the people on my list, see if there's anything that they think is missing or what might need to include and, and all that stuff. So, I gotta be honest though, I'm really dragging my feet on, on finishing writing the book.

And it's just writing a book's a pain, you know, it's, for me, it's a lot to. It's a lot of work. And then you get to that point where it's like, Is that enough? What else do I need to add? Is this stuff missing? Is there too much? Is it too short? Is it too long? You know, it's just, Yeah,

Laura: it's, it's hard finding the balance because you don't want, you don't want a book that's full of filler, but at the same time, you don't want people to say, Well, this could have been a blog post.

Yeah.

Nathan: One of the things that resonated me most, that resonated most from the book where, Right. Useful. Uh, how to write useful books. I think it was called that. Something along those lines. Just make the, the chapter sh short enough that they can get to the value as quickly as possible. If it's taking a reader too long to get to, you know, the value of that chapter, then.

Cut it out, just cut it all out until they, the quicker they can get to that point of value, the better, obviously with non nonfiction sort of books. So yes, that's where I am with that and other things in the pipeline, but that's pretty much what's going on at the moment. So, uh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, and trying to build content as well for feature fronts, cuz I want there to be content on there before the product is launched.

That's what I did with new. back in 2014, so before the pro even existed, there was already traffic. Um, and it's something I wanna try and emulate and in fact do a bit better this time. So I'm trying to make a move on that. Yeah. Is that like a blog? Yeah, it's gonna be a blog for now. I've been reaching out for people all over Twitter to get help with this.

You know, like I said, I've been away for a long time. Uh, and I actually reached out to Ruben Gams. Um, a lot of people probably know him from Bid Sketch and Sowell, and he told me to reach out to ex-employees of ex marketing employees of businesses who work in a similar space, and in this case, product manage.

So I just reached out to all the, uh, ex marketing people I could find on LinkedIn and just introduced myself and said, Hey, you know, I'm a, I'm a broke bootstrapper building a sas, trying to get a head up, uh, you know, um, head start on marketing. Would you be up for help? You know, and, and I've had, I've had calls with people where they've spent like half an hour their time telling me about marketing strategies, what worked best with product managers.

Unbelievable. That's people giving up their time completely for free. Don't know me. And it's so it's been fantastic. So I've been able to sort of build up some great ideas around that. Yeah,

Laura: that's really impressive considering I would imagine these people get requests like that a lot. Yeah. So there must have been something about the message you sent or.

I don't know. Yeah. Maybe who you

Nathan: are. I don't know. I was surprised as well about the, you know, the number of people I didn't write to a huge number of people and, and the returns were probably maybe sort of about 20% on the people I contacted. But I think given the sort of cold out outreach aspect of LinkedIn, which is always horrible, I think it was pretty good.

And, and. The overwhelming sort of response I got was content is still king, you know, still writing content that fits, uh, a search need of, in my case, product managers. So yeah, I need to really, that's not what I wanna. .

Laura: Yeah, sorry, . Yeah, it's difficult. I struggle so much with writing content. I actually enjoy writing and I think I'm an okay writer, but, uh, you're a great writer.

You are. I thank you. Well, it's my, um, some, I think if you are, if you follow me, you'll probably know that I have RSI in my arm, wrist, kind of right arm, and so I can't type for very long at. Without, I can't type or text. It makes writing content really hard. I've tried a bunch of different things like, um, I've tried.

Hiring someone to write content, but I didn't want just generic cookie cutter content. I wanted it to be, its difficult, the expertise. And I'm like, Well, how can I outsource me? And then I've tried dictating my content, so speaking it, but I'm a better writer than I am speaker. And I just didn't, I think if I went for it and really.

Every day, maybe it would've got better. It was just too uncomfortable. And I was like, Oh, this is just not even a good article. So I haven't published anything. I've tried like outlines and Oh yeah, I, that's, that's one of my massive pain points literally is, um, Content. Cause I just can't see a way around it.

I'm

Nathan: not great. I think some people, for some, for some people, it just flows and they can literally bang out, you know, a thousand word, 1500 word article in, you know, half an hour. It just flows and that's it. But for me, it takes me ages because I go back over it, back over it, and I doubt it and I rethink it.

And it would literally take me days and days to write. 1500, 2000 word article. So it takes me a very long time to

Laura: get anything. Yeah. With all the editing, I'm the same. I edit a lot. My husband can just write an article and it's, has never, never even been looked over and it's amazing. But yeah, I have to edit.

It's only after editing that it's, um, It goes

Nathan: well. Well, so how many products do you have to do, you have to write for? Because you know, we're looking at sort of focus today and sort of shiny objects and all that. How many products or services or projects could you potentially be writing for? Quite a lot because that, because that changes things as

Laura: well.

Right? That's still one product. I mean, that's the other thing. It's a good segue, by the way. Um, thank you. So I've got, I've got client portal, which is the main thing. I've got Design Academy, which is my design course for developers. And then there's Project Pack, which is, it's more for the client portal audience.

It's documents and templates for freelances and agencies. Feel like I have something else as well. Were you, were you doing that with Brenna? . Um, yes, so that's also part of w Freelancing, which is another thing, which is a company. Oh, okay. We are sort of revamping now and getting back to where it was cuz it, it was doing really well at one, at some point.

And then we've sort of

Nathan: led that. I think I, I think I was in one of the first cohort cohorts like. way back. Oh, really? Way, way, way back when. Yeah. .

Laura: Oh, nice. Yeah. Yeah, possibly. Um, yeah, so there's that as well, which I actually forgot about. And then, um, I've recently started a design retainer, so I do, I actually, I've got back into client work a bit.

Which is so random. Um, and , I'm not even sure, well, actually I do know why I'm doing it, but yeah, it's, it's just another thing that I'm doing and I, I'm actually quite enjoying it because it's just hourly based and, um, it's just takes a few hours a week. So it's not, it's not too bad. But yeah. So quite a long, and now I know where all your

Nathan: time goes.

Laura: Yeah. And I feel like this is so else. That's a lister. That is a list. Yeah. But I don't write content for project pack, so it would only be, So for client portal, my content is more case studies. That's the more useful thing for people. They wanna see example portals, so it's not really writing, and then it's like product updates, which are super easy to write.

But I'm not trying to make client portal into a educational hub. Design Academy is a thing where I need. Content for, It's like the educational part, Project pack. I don't have any content that I write. I'm not planning on pursuing the whole client retainer thing, so I've got, no, I don't even have a website for that.

So there's no content for that. So it is actually really just design Academy that I need to write content for. Yeah, so it's not too bad in terms of content, but back to the whole shiny object syndrome and lack of focus, that is yeah, definitely a struggle cuz I'm just one person and I don't have a massive team behind me.

Nathan: Well, do you have, do you have other sort of potential shiny objects going on right now? I mean, are, are there other things calling you in other directions? List,

Laura: Um, nothing new, but there's just, the difficult part about having so many products is over time you just wanna redo them all. Always, because you just think of better ways to do it.

And I, I want to redo all my project packs and just add new things to it and make it, and just even better, I wanna do little supplementary courses for Design Academy. There's just all this extra stuff that's in my head that I want to do, and. Thing that I've, I tend to do, which I've stopped doing now, is I'll have an idea of something that I'll wanna either create or build a different business or redo something and I'll send an email out to my list saying, Hey, I'm thinking of doing this.

Are you interested? And then inevitably I'll get dozens of replies saying, Yeah, I'm interested. Yeah, this would be great. Amazing. Um, and then it, then I have to do it. That worked a few years ago when I needed the accountability. I had the time. I was just not using the time effectively, and I just needed people to be waiting for something to get me to do it.

It doesn't work anymore though because now I, I physically don't have the time to be committing to all this extra stuff. So I've stopped myself every time I've opened up, convert. And gone to write an email about something that I've got in my head that I would quite like to do. I've stopped myself when I'm saying no.

If I do it, I'm gonna do it and then tell people after it's already done because I can't take the pressure of, uh,

Nathan: That's not marketing. That's reverse marketing.

Laura: It is, yeah. It's, it's crazy. It's, uh, yeah, it doesn't make any sense.

Nathan: Yeah, when you already have all of those products that are working and selling and, and people are sort of, Well, one question actually would be was are people asking for updates on these, on these, like the project pack and, and sort of are customers or potential customers asking for these things, or is this just something that you feel you wanna do or, Yeah.

Is this internal or external thing?

Laura: Yeah, it's definitely just me. Like I, I get the odd pe person ask, and, but no, typically people aren't saying, , whereas an update, they're pretty happy with things as they are. So it's even more, I think I really do enjoy creating things. I, I really like building products and creating them, and I love doing that.

So a lot of it's, it's fun for me. Um,

Nathan: in a way it's, But is it all fun? This, see this is a big thing for me. Is the whole process fun? Or is there something or some part of that process that is more fun? Cuz I know for me there is the

Laura: beginning and the end are the fun part. Yeah. ,

Nathan: that's the one. Thank you.

Yeah. Good. It's not just me then. It's so easy, isn't it? It's so easy to get pumped and to get, you know, super excited. And I think we went through the same thing with the podcast now. You know, when all of a sudden it's like, yeah, yeah, let's do it. Let's do it and let's get, you know, something else to get excited.

Yeah. Everything that else in between is gonna be the, the, the true sort of test. You know, consistency, same as anything. And I think for me, I'm, and this has been a criticism both my personal life and in business life, this lack of consistency, you know? Yeah. Um, and it really affects everything you do. It affects everything I do.

I know, um, just from, uh, an example from a month or two ago, I said that, I said, I think I said on Twitter or something or maybe to my list that I was gonna be looking. Oh, I was gonna start publishing, uh, chapters of the book to, to my list. And in fact, I think we spoke about this briefly, and I did, I did send the first chapter after, and I didn't do anything else after that.

And it's not because I don't want to, it's because a thousand other things come up and then once, and so I probably feel guilty for a few days after that, but then as soon as. Enough things come in and fill that space in my brain. It just gets pushed out and I, and I completely forget about it. And I'm, I'm, I'm onto the next loop of, uh, well what should I be working on now?

Or what's gonna give me that endorphine kick or dopamine kick now to make me feel good about working? And then one, you know, and it just goes right round until in the end, you don't actually get an awful lot done until something, and there's, until there's a big enough like Jo. to make you say, Oh shit, okay, I need to focus on this now, because whatever, maybe there's a release date or a launch date, or you have enough people saying, Hey, you, you promised this and it's not here.

Or, you know, you're gonna run outta money in, in five months time and, you know, something needs to happen. So I find it, but I find it very, very difficult. And that shiny object thing is, I mean, I know it's, it's the bane of any, uh, in the, whatever you wanna call 'em, entrepreneur's life. You know, the continual joke of how many domains do you own?

You know, every time you have that new idea, just go and buy that new domain. The we'll do something with it one day, and inevitably we don't. It's, it's

Laura: a real nightmare. Yeah. So I've been thinking a lot about it obviously since we said we were doing this episode. And I'm curious as to what you think, Do you think that, do you think that.

People should just have one thing they focus on. Do you think shiny, put it another way. Do you think shiny object syndrome can never be a good thing or is it always bad?

Nathan: I think there are people that would argue for and against both sides. Um, this is, for some reason this is. Become quite, uh, a sort of, not a trending topic, but it's coming up more and more on Twitter at the moment.

Those that, and it's always the case isn, that those that have decided to close down all their small projects and focus on one larger one are suddenly seeing, you know, an increased success rate on their. Project of choice, which stands to reason, obviously if you only focus on one. But then there are others as well that are just as vocal of on having, you know, 8, 9, 10 tiny little projects, whether they're books or courses, whatever, you know, and they're bringing in a, a decent revenue stream.

And the argument for, um, what if one thing fails or if one thing goes wrong, then you have all these alternate streams coming in. I, I would definitely myself like to have streams of revenue coming in from different places, uh, as more as a backup than anything else. But I know for a fact as well, because I know myself that if feature flux were to get to a point where it was bringing in enough revenue, I would be quite happy to say, Okay, this is my primary focus now, and I'm, I would almost put everything else to the back, You know, the book.

If that's selling, then fine. That'll be. Tick over and maybe the email course or the video course or whatever. I think it's, um, I think it depends where you are because I think if you launch a product and you suddenly see, Oh wow, it's getting some really serious traction, then I think why would you continue to sort of split your time and your stress levels and your, the few hours you have available to you to do so many things?

But I would ask that question of you because client portal. by far your your most successful product, right? And the kind of the mainstay of your income. Yeah. So

Laura: this is, it's, this is so why all the other projects ? Yeah. I dunno because I, um, if I were giving myself advice or if I was someone else's giving me advice, I would say just focus on client portal.

And actually people say that to me all the time. Just, what are you doing? And what do you say to them? I say, I don't know. I don't know why I don't, I don't know. There's, so the, for me, stability is really important and safety is really important. That's like a big reason why I do what I do. I actually feel like working for yourself is more stable than having a job because, you know, someone could just fire you tomorrow and that's it.

So I'm, I'm really big on stability and focusing on just one product. Makes me nervous in case something happened or you know, some something else got released and they just completely wiped me out. They had a ton of investment or something and what would I do then? So I like having multiple. Revenue streams.

And that's actually the reason I've started this, these retainer projects is because, uh, here in the UK there's just the, the news just is sort of, kind of scary as all this cost of living stuff's going up. There's a huge recession looming. And I think it's, I think it's worldwide, Like it's pretty much everywhere It is.

Yeah. Um, and despite the fact that I'm fine and I haven't noticed really, I've noticed like a little, I've noticed a little bit of a change in. Client portal sales, but nothing drastic enough for me to be too worried, to be honest. I just thought actually I want, I wanna feel like I've got something to fall back on if I needed to.

And I wasn't even sure could I ever go back to client work. Like what if everything failed and I needed to do that? Am I even capable? So it was sort of like a way for me to test the waters. Can I get clients? Can I.

Nathan: have this. Well, you did a good job on that cuz you didn't even get, have time to get a website up, right?

No,

Laura: I, I sent like, uh, a couple of tweets just saying about I'm thinking of doing this, and then all the spots got sold out just from a couple of tweets in a Google doc that never even made it live. I think I've sent it to you. That's, that's amazing. I think like three, three or four people have access to that Google doc, that and it, so it went really well.

So I'm like, cool. That actually really worked and I've been really enjoying it and it's nice. It's just nice knowing. If anything happened, I've got that to fall back on. Do I need to do it? No. Um, should I be doing it? I dunno. Probably not, but I am so, Yeah. It's strange.

Nathan: But it Do you think there's some kind of creative need there as well that, you know, if you, if you just focused on one project that it can become, because there is a point, obviously, and I don't know what it's like for client portal cuz it's, it's a yearly subscription, right?

Not a monthly subscription.

Laura: Yeah. But the yearly subscription's optional. It's just the support and

Nathan: updates. Okay, So it's slightly different, but what I was gonna say was that once your project side, project whatever becomes a business, then it changes and you change as well. Like your role within that. Uh, project changes.

You suddenly become a business owner as opposed to a designer, a developer, a marketer, or whatever it is that you are, and you suddenly have to take care of all these other areas that you've never imagined working on before. I remember that happened. Newey, you know, I stopped, I stopped being a designer, and I suddenly became this business owner that had to do everything, you know, from customer support to, to marketing, to writing content, to going on, uh, podcasts to.

You know, all this crap that you th you never wanted to do and probably didn't, you know, it wasn't something that I enjoyed either. So I think there's a way to maintain that level of interest by broadening that sort of scope and saying, Okay, well here's another little project here and here's another project here where I can continue to be that designer, that developer, that marketer, you know, and, and keep the fund there because, , it's easy to lose.

Um, it's easy to lose interest in a, in a, in a project or a business once it goes beyond. What you initially thought it was gonna be. Yeah,

Laura: that's a good point. I think cuz there there's a difference between what you say you could do if you had the time versus what you will do when you get that time. So in times where I have had a lot of time and maybe less projects going on, was I getting more done for client portal or Design Academy or whichever was my biggest project at the time?

Probably not, to be honest. Maybe this, I don't think this is just a me thing. I think this is fairly common, but you tend to just fill your time, not always doing the things that you should be doing. And if you've got, if you have less time of, often you get more done because you just don't have the option of not doing it.

When you've got lots of time, you maybe say, Oh. I'll just, I, I'd need to do this first. I need to do this now. And I think that's when shiny object syndrome can be a problem is if it's, if you're doing it because you are putting off doing something that you don't want to do. So I see a lot of people buy lots of domain names and have lots of different ideas when they get close to maybe launching something.

They like jump onto something else and I think it's because they're maybe scared of launching.

Nathan: I is think that's a part of it. I, I think progra procrastination comes in and that fear as well. The closer you get to launch, the more difficult it becomes to finish, doesn't it? And so therefore there's that, I dunno whether it is that search that for that next hit of dopamine or whatever.

So it's just like, here's another, here's another domain name kind of thing. So, almost battling against that. I dunno what that capability to finish or to succeed or to maybe. Maybe that whole fear of failure thing comes in. I don't know. I'm not a psychologist, but it's easier to move on to another project and start it than there is to finish one and get it out the door and see what the response is.

See whether. Anyone's interested. Hopefully we've done enough research prior, but you never know 100% do you before that, before that gets out the door. So yeah, it's difficult. Well, shiny, shiny object syndrome there, there it is. I don't know.

Laura: Uh, you just have to figure out how you can manage it and decide for yourself whether, and be honest with yourself as to whether you're doing this because it really excites you and you wanna do it and you think it'll do really well or whether is there anything else that you're putting.

In place of it. And do you need to do it? And do you want everything that comes from doing that? Because like you say, when you launch something, if it does go well, um, then you have customer support and you have updates to make and you have all the less fun stuff that comes with building a business. Yeah.

So you have to make sure you're okay with it. But yeah, I think, yeah, I think shiny object syndrome can be okay because especially when. Just starting out and you're trying to find a good product. You don't wanna go all in on something. It's sort of good to try a few different things, but yeah, I don't know.

I, I just, I, I struggle with this one because I don't know if what I'm saying is, I'm saying it because it's the right answer or whether I'm saying it to justify my own shiny object syndrome.

Nathan: Yeah. I don't think there is any right or wrong here. Like, like you said before, you know, we see people who thrive on.

Um, who and who can make it work on both? I guess the only difference is, like you said, is the, the justification you give to yourself. The reasons for, for doing it or for not doing it, you know? So only we can know on a personal level, whether it's the right or wrong thing for us. Yeah. For me, I don't know.

Probably focusing would be a good thing, a better thing. But that doesn't mean to say that I don't want to get at least three products out the door and working .

Laura: Yeah, exactly. All right,

Nathan: cool. Well, good. Should we, should we leave it there then?

Laura: Yeah, I think that's a good

place

Nathan: to leave it. If anyone's got any feedback on what we're doing, uh, or wants to leave any comments or any questions that we might be able to sort of field, uh, you can reach us on a podcast at the non-tech founders.com, so it's podcast at the non-tech founders.com.

Awesome. Cool.

Laura: Alright then, Laura. All right, see you next time. Great to chat. Bye-bye. Bye.